PODCAST TRANSCRIPT

Jessica Hughes: 00:00 All right, everyone! We are back for week two in our little series of building trust with consumers. Last week, we chatted about how big brands can invest in building that trust, and this week we’re changing the tables to how challenger brands should invest in building that trust.

Welcome to the Fork & Lens podcast, brought to you by Viscul.

Ooh, smells delish!

First and foremost, we have five different ways that you can invest in building these relationships with your customers, and the first is better quality and taste. And the funny thing is, before we even get started, is the fact that when it comes to challenger brands versus big brands… So big brands have already established themselves. They already have some trust in the sense of they’re big corporations, there’s something there to follow. When it comes to challenger brands, it’s almost like you have to prove yourself in that space before you even can remotely track upon what we talked about last week. Agreed?

Randall Hughes: 01:17 Yeah. Yes, I agree with that.

Jessica Hughes: 01:19 Okay. So when we talk about these things, it’s almost like these are the proof points that you have to hit before you can almost put yourself in that big brand category.

Randall Hughes: 01:27 Yeah, if you want to be in the big brand category. I think it’s okay to be a challenger brand and say, “We are going to challenge the big brands in what they’re-“

Jessica Hughes: 01:27 “But we don’t want to be in the big brand category.”

Randall Hughes: 01:37 “-But we don’t want to necessarily be a big brand.” Right.

Jessica Hughes: 01:38 Which is totally fair. So, better quality and taste. How do we go about this in terms of marketing? So, having better quality, focusing on where ingredients are being sourced from, focusing on responsible retailing, sustainability, traceability, all the things. And then also upon taste. A lot of the times when you’re working with bigger brands, the recipes start to get watered down, because they’re looking at the bottom line and they’re looking at price, whereas when you’re a challenger brand, a lot of times your prices can be higher and you can really invest in the taste difference and the quality difference of those ingredients.

Randall Hughes: 02:22 And that’s why I said just a second ago that I don’t think every challenger brand should want to be a big brand, because I actually think if you-

Jessica Hughes: 02:22 Right. I’d rather be a challenger brand, personally.

Randall Hughes: 02:31 Yeah. I think if you have a brand that that can do something that’s, we’ll say, a little more artisan, or you can stick to more traditional methods of producing something, or you can even say “I’m going to get everything from a single source” or something like that as far as where your ingredients come from, I think that’s important. And the bigger you get, the less you actually are able to do that, and it can actually take away from the quality, from the taste, all those different things.

Jessica Hughes: 03:05 Okay. So on that same vein, second thing would be to focus on healthier and less-processed ingredients. So this comes back to, a lot of big brands tend to use fillers and elevate the level of salt in their products, and preservatives, and all those different things.

Randall Hughes: 03:24 Well, salt is cheap.

Jessica Hughes: 03:24 Salt is cheap. Sugar’s cheap, too!

Randall Hughes: 03:27 Yeah.

Jessica Hughes: 03:27 Imagine that! You know, really kind of focusing in on those healthier, less-processed ingredients and bringing that to the forefront of your messaging. I think consumers are getting really savvy around this now. Especially in light of the past several months, I think people are watching their health that much more. So how do we bring those things to the forefront in terms of marketing and packaging and all those different things?

Randall Hughes: 03:53 Well, first off, I think allowing your packaging to feel a little more… I don’t want to say handmade, but a little more not-mass-produced.

Jessica Hughes: 04:05 Artisan.

Randall Hughes: 04:05 Yeah, a little more artisan. Maybe having a few more details. We talked last week about having big brands be a little bit more transparent and authentic, but I think that it can be really difficult for them to slap that part of it on a package, and that’s where the challenger brand has the opportunity there, because they are sourcing from smaller farms, or smaller whatever their sources are. They can put that on the packaging in a way that can resonate a little bit more with their customers.

Jessica Hughes: 04:36 You know, something that I’ve realized in my shopping habits is that I tend to gravitate towards brands that have more creative packaging. And that’s not necessarily because we work in the industry that we work in; I think it’s also because of the fact that I feel like it’s something that people have invested in, and they have invested in the quality of it. They’ve invested in less-processed ingredients. It feels more natural, and it’s just something that stands out from the rest. I feel like when you start to look at those more processed items and those sorts of things, the more generic the packaging gets.

Randall Hughes: 05:16 I don’t even want to say more generic. I think there’s big brands that have really great packaging. But I think that-

Jessica Hughes: 05:20 Yes, there are exceptions to my perspective. I will not deny that.

Randall Hughes: 05:24 And maybe it’s because we’re in this industry, but I tend to look for packaging that I know wasn’t super produced. If there’s a hand element to it, there’s a hand process element to it that is there, or… Honestly, you said you go for things that are super creative? I will pick up the worst package on the shelf all day long, because I just feel like, generally, when I look at that, if I pick something up that feels like it wasn’t done super professionally, a lot of times it’ll actually feel a little bit more… I don’t want say “mom and pop,” but where you know that somebody did this because they needed to keep costs down and kind of go from there. But I don’t know.

Jessica Hughes: 06:03 Oh, I can’t agree with you on that. I’m sorry. I just don’t. I feel like people shop with their eyes, and if it’s not something that’s visually appealing, it’s not going to appeal to my taste buds.

Randall Hughes: 06:13 I don’t mean it shouldn’t be visually appealing, but… I guess I want to say more risk taken. A big brand will spend millions of dollars to make sure that their packaging is going to be great in the aisle. A small brand doesn’t have those resources, and I think there might be… I don’t know. Again, I think it’s just because we’re in this industry. There’s always this feeling that, when I pick something up, I can tell if it’s a smaller company, and I will generally gravitate toward those things to try, because I want to see, what’s the difference?

And I even love where I’ll take, say it’s spaghetti sauce, and I’ll pick up a Ragu, which is obviously big-brand, and I’ll pick up… I don’t even know who, a small brand that I know is not that big, and try them, pair them side by side, and see how different they are. Even from a price standpoint, one of them is $2, one of them is $8. There’s got to be a difference in there somewhere. And I don’t think those differences are always because one is buying in mass quantities. I think there can be a quality difference.

Jessica Hughes: 07:21 Quality also sometimes comes in our third point, which is the more interesting flavors.

Randall Hughes: 07:29 Okay.

Jessica Hughes: 07:30 And I think that challenger brands really have an opportunity here, because there are so many flavors out there that are manufactured flavors. They’re not authentic flavors. And I think challenger brands are really doing an amazing job at bringing authentic flavors to retail, in the sense of making sure that they actually match something, whether… I think of African flavors, just because it’s a hot topic right now and it’s a trend in 2020, but if a company is producing an African flavor and it’s processed and it’s not really on point, again, consumers sniff this stuff out. They know it. And with the limited travel that we’re having in 2020, how do we make sure that people are still experiencing those cultures through food? And I think it just provides this amazing opportunity for challenger brands that big brands probably can’t bring to the table.

Randall Hughes: 08:33 Well, again, it comes back to quantity and how a big brand might have-

Jessica Hughes: 08:41 It comes back to R&D, honestly.

Randall Hughes: 08:43 Well, yeah. Well, they might have four, five, six SKUs that they know are their sellers, and they’re going to stick to those things because they’re going to continue to sell and sell and sell. Whereas a smaller brand can take a few more liberties with that and say, “Okay, I’ve got my two or three SKUs that really sell. I’m going to try some new things and make some new products and see what we can do.” It doesn’t always mean they’ll be able to get those things on the shelf, so there can be some challenges there, but I think it can be… Small brands aren’t going to put out something that a big brand has already has already perfected.

Jessica Hughes: 09:16 No, they’re not.

Randall Hughes: 09:17 Or they shouldn’t be.

Jessica Hughes: 09:17 But I think that’s where we have that creative R&D space to accomplish, because let’s face it, I don’t see… You know, African flavors; so Stouffer’s isn’t going to come out with an African frozen meal. They’re just not. But there are people who are going to bring African flavor profiles to food, like for instance, grain blends with seasonings and other things that are able to bring those things to the forefront, if they are actually investing in the opportunities of interesting flavors.

And also, leading into my fourth point, which would be something just new and different. How do you stand out from everyone else? Smashmallows did this amazing job with marshmallows. We’ve lived on white, fluffy marshmallows for how long? And they came out with these amazing flavored marshmallows that totally transformed s’mores, which, in summertime and in fall… But also just the snackability of them as well.

Randall Hughes: 10:32 Yeah. I would actually venture to say that they took something that was very artisan and turned it into something that maybe wasn’t so artisan.

Jessica Hughes: 10:42 Okay.

Randall Hughes: 10:43 But I say that in the sense of, I think they did their research and they found out that, “Hey, not everybody goes…” There have been homemade marshmallows for a long time, and people have been putting different flavors in them and making them taste different. I think they were able to take that idea, do some R&D around it, and actually bring it in a mass-produced consumer landscape.

Jessica Hughes: 11:07 Okay.

Randall Hughes: 11:08 So they’re not necessarily a big brand, but I think they’re fighting… It’s almost like they’re in between.

Jessica Hughes: 11:16 I think they are a challenger brand.

Randall Hughes: 11:16 Well, they’re for sure a challenger brand when it comes to, “Okay, I’m going up against the marshmallow world, the very mass-produced marshmallow, all white puff different sizes that are out there.”

Jessica Hughes: 11:28 Right.

Randall Hughes: 11:29 But then I think there’s the flip side of it, where there are actually brands that are going to continue to challenge them, because they’re now the biggest in the space, and there’s going to be challenger brands that are going to push them a little bit, too.

Jessica Hughes: 11:41 Which is a really good point. That said, I think that they were able to do something new and something different on a level and with quantity production that an artisan brand may not have been able to do.

Randall Hughes: 12:01 I would totally agree with that. Yeah.

Jessica Hughes: 12:03 And honestly, I think that comes back to just, how do you want to grow your company, as well? Because they obviously had investors and were able to scale very rapidly after a certain point in order to get it into lots of retail stores and other places.

Randall Hughes: 12:19 Yeah. Again, I-

Jessica Hughes: 12:22 At some point, there’s this transition that happens from just a small artisan shop to mass production.

Randall Hughes: 12:28 Well, yeah. You have to figure out what you want that to be. If you don’t want that, then don’t do that.

Jessica Hughes: 12:34 Right. Right.

Randall Hughes: 12:35 But if you do have a dream of becoming something that’s larger and you’re going to start to push… I just think that there’s that middle ground of figuring out, “Okay, how do we scale this thing up without losing quality? And as we scale up, is our clientele going to stay the same and still pay the price point that they once paid?” So I think it’s just a matter of looking at that. The overall hope would be that, “Yes, we’re creating something that’s really good. We’re not going to lower our quality to go bigger.” So what does that look like on a broader scale?

Jessica Hughes: 13:10 Right. And I think, for the fifth area that we can kind of focus in on here, is how do we meet a previously unfulfilled need in the market as a challenger brand, as well?

Randall Hughes: 13:21 I think that comes down to your flavor profiles and things that… If you’re bringing something new to the market that maybe wasn’t there before, then I think that can actually be really difficult, because you now have to educate a much larger audience.

Jessica Hughes: 13:36 Yes.

Randall Hughes: 13:36 But I think if you’re coming in and you’re changing the way a proven industry already operates, and you’re changing flavor profiles, or you’re changing quality of ingredients, I think you may actually have something there, because that’s when I feel like you have the opportunity to say, “Hey, you’re buying this. Here’s a better version of it.” Right?

Jessica Hughes: 13:56 Yes. I agree. I kind of want to loop back around here to how we started this, and how all of these five items that we’ve kind of talked through address building trust with consumers, and making sure that this is applicable to our listeners. So focusing on quality, taste, healthy, less-processed, interesting flavor profile, something new and different. All those things need to stem out of understanding who your consumer is, who your target is, and building a relationship with them, and almost saying to them, “I understand what you’re asking for and we’re providing it for you.” Or, “Here’s something because you want to discover something new that we’re giving you to discover.”

I think those are the types of things that, as you’re looking at that relationship with a target customer, that are going to start building trust on a regular basis. And as long as you’re kind of cyclically going through that conversation, it is allowing you to build trust with the consumer.

Randall Hughes: 15:03 I agree with all of that. Challenger brands have the word “challenger” in them for a reason. They’re challenging the big brand. They’re challenging, not just the flavors, but the practices, the quality of ingredients, the flavor profiles, like you said, even the business practices, and they haven’t been bought by conglomerates and all those things. And I think all that comes back to having an authentic voice as you continue to grow, and then how you can continue to connect with your customers as you move into new markets.

Jessica Hughes: 15:42 Yes, yes, and yes.

Randall Hughes: 15:45 All right. Well, I think that covers everything for today. I hope that you found this to be insightful and you can take something from this, if you’re a challenger brand currently, or if, even, you’re working your way up to being a challenger brand. Again, just taking some of these practices, thinking through them a little bit. Don’t take everything verbatim. Go out there and fight this world on your own. Do some research, take some advice, and keep growing.

Jessica Hughes: 16:13 Thank you so much. We will be back with you next week, and we hope you take care until then!

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