PODCAST TRANSCRIPT

Jessica Hughes: 00:00 Hey everyone. Thanks for joining us today. I am super excited about today’s guest. We have Seth Sirbaugh with us. He is the founder and principal creative of Tribe in Frederick, Maryland. And for more than 20 years, he’s led award winning teams in creative art direction, branding, and marketing collateral, as well as interactive design. Seth has worked with a diverse range of clients, including companies, nonprofit organizations, and associations. And his works has appeared numerous times in print magazines, National Design Annual, The Art Director’s Club of Metropolitan Washington Annual Show, The Logo Lounge, The Big Book of Logos, Print Magazine and How. Graphic Design USA recently recognized him as one of their people to watch.

He also takes a great deal of pride in helping to build the design community and working to develop the next generation of designers. He’s served as adjunct faculty at the Corcoran School of Art in Washington DC, as well as Shepherd University, his alma mater. He also lectures at various colleges and universities, sharing his methods, expertise, and experience with aspiring designers. Please help me welcome Seth to the show.

Welcome to the Fork and Lens Podcast, brought to you by VisCul. Ooh, smells delish. So Seth is joining us today, and we’ve known Seth for several years now. He’s a great friend, but also an amazing creative. And we very much value his input and his opinions. But Seth has also really kind of fine tuned how business partners can make or break the brand and the return on investment, especially when it comes to creative marketing and advertising agencies and how those relationships all work together. So welcome to the show, Seth.

Seth Sirbaugh: 02:01 Hi.

Jessica Hughes: 02:03 Hi.

Seth Sirbaugh: 02:06 Thanks for having me.

Jessica Hughes: 02:07 Any time. So let’s just start off with, from your perspective, and I know you work with a lot of alcohol brands and distilleries and different things, as well as most recently, I think you wrapped up rebranding the entire Fulbright Scholarship Program, which is pretty amazing.

Seth Sirbaugh: 02:29 It was pretty big, yeah. It’s a big one.

Jessica Hughes: 02:33 That is a big one. So let’s just kind of overview this. What does working with an agency look like? And what should some of those expectations be for someone who hasn’t really kind of dipped their toe in the agency waters?

Seth Sirbaugh: 02:50 Well, I’d probably start by saying that when a company is shopping for an agency to work with, it’s kind of like when agencies are looking for work that fits them. It’s always got to be a very clean partnership. We always tell, when I’m talking about this subject, we always say that when you’re looking for an agency, there’s kind of a list of things that you should really go down. And a lot of it will depend, obviously, on what industry you’re working with. But let’s say, if you had to have a checklist, we would always say that experience matters always, based on what you want.

If you’re looking for a video, or if you’re looking for branding, or identity, or packaging, as a creative agency, you have a plethora of agencies to look at. And there are all different kinds of agencies as well. I mean, there’s branding and design. There’s marketing, advertising, communication agencies. And they all have different capabilities. So it’s always really important to do your homework. Look at everybody. Take the time to do it. It’s kind of like buying a new car. It’s got to be the right fit. And you want to take your time so you don’t make the wrong call. And there’s a lot of really great firms out there. They all have different specialties and different focuses. So we always say that it’s important to do your homework. Make sure you look at everybody. And the experience within what you want to do, then on top of that, it very much matters as well.

Clear communication is also a good one. It’s one of the things that I feel like is super overlooked all the time. But I’m a huge fan of clear, direct, and dot, dot, dot, prompt communication because so many of these businesses and companies, they’re on a time crunch. And their time is money as well, so they don’t want to be waiting around for weeks for someone to get back to them when something that literally could’ve been a two word answer. So we’re always really, really quick to point out that how you have a conversation with these agencies is really important. It’s a big deal.

Jessica Hughes: 05:13 Yeah. I mean, we make a practice of practicing the 24 hour rule. If you haven’t responded within 24 hours of getting that email, or inquiry, or phone call, then we have a bigger problem on our hands.

Seth Sirbaugh: 05:13 Right.

Jessica Hughes: 05:27 No, I think you’re right. And I think the other thing that I would even add to that is from the communication side. I would also stray away from agencies that aren’t really willing to talk about pricing even in ball park terms. So for instance, it’s one of those things that when someone comes to me and says, “Hey, do you do these services?” Then usually, my question is, “Yes. But in what capacity are you looking for them?” Because that might determine whether or not we’re actually able to do the work. And then from that, it also goes into, yes, usually for that particular type of product, we’ve seen clients pay anywhere between this number and this number, depending on a myriad of different whistles and knobs and all those different pieces of the project and what all the deliverables are. So yes, I think that communication is 100% key.

Seth Sirbaugh: 06:24 And I think that also, I mean, to your point, I mean, definitely on that list, one of ours is discuss the budget and costs early because you don’t want to waste people’s time. I mean, at the end of the day, again, as a business, your budget is what your budget is, no matter what. And we have to be conscious of that. And if there’s no way to solve the problem the client has within the budget, then we don’t want to go through a whole rigamarole for two weeks trying to get everything set up, and then realize at the last minute that, oh, this isn’t going to work out financially for either party. It doesn’t make any sense. So really being comfortable about those conversations and having them very early is important. Plus, if by chance, you’re not a good fit, sometimes that agency can help direct you to somebody that is.

Jessica Hughes: 07:18 Yeah. I can’t tell you how many times that’s happened to us, of someone will inquire and we’ll say, “I’m sorry. I don’t think this is the right fit. But you may want to check out X, Y, or Z because they do those things, and I know they do really great work.”

Seth Sirbaugh: 07:31 Right, exactly.

Jessica Hughes: 07:32 Right.

Seth Sirbaugh: 07:35 Go ahead.

Jessica Hughes: 07:36 No, you’re fine.

Seth Sirbaugh: 07:38 I was going to say, one of the other things that I think is super important as well is that they understand how you work for that particular project. That’s super important.

Jessica Hughes: 07:50 Yes, knowing process and even timeline for that matter, roughly how long it takes. I think some people are very amazed how long creative work takes some days.

Seth Sirbaugh: 08:02 Yeah. We all wish there was a big button that said, “Design and create,” and we pushed it, and out popped everything. But that’s not how it works unfortunately.

Jessica Hughes: 08:12 No. When it comes to process, I think that’s really important as well because you have not just what steps are going to be taken, but also: What does the partnership of that relationship look like? And what are the agency, or designer, or videographer, or whatever instance we’re looking at, expectations of the client and vice versa?

Seth Sirbaugh: 08:35 Yeah, exactly. And how a basic day with you is going to look to them. How are you going to communicate? Who do you communicate with? How involved are they? How involved can they be? How involved should they be? There’s a lot of different ways that you can talk to a client about how the process is going to both involve them and when you’ll need to step away from that, and then bring them something. Again, those conversations are really important because some clients are excited about being involved. Others are so hands off. So having those conversations really early are going to just go a long way to making sure that it’s a comfortable partnership.

Jessica Hughes: 09:17 Well, and I don’t know about you, but a lot of times for me, if someone inquires and they ask one or two questions, and you’re like, “Yeah, we can do that. It’s usually within this ball park.” And they’re like, “Great, let’s do it,” it’s almost a red flag for me. Why aren’t you asking more questions? And then I start to wonder. Okay, do you just not know to ask more questions or a desire to know the finer details because you have unlimited resources? Or is it because you’re just naive to this entire situation? So I think going in and actually asking questions is no different than an employee coming into an annual review and, as the employer, asking, “Do you have any questions for me?” And they’re like, “No.” It’s like, “Okay. Are you really interested in this?”

Seth Sirbaugh: 10:03 Right.

Jessica Hughes: 10:03 Even an interview, it doesn’t even have to be an annual review. It’s the same situation. You’re feeling out one another to make sure it’s a good working relationship. And if you’re not doing your due diligence, it’s almost a red flag for the agency too.

Seth Sirbaugh: 10:16 Yeah. I definitely agree on that. And I also think that the education is a huge part of what we do. I mean, that’s the thing that’s so overlooked in everything that creatives do in general because we aren’t just hitting a button. There’s so much education that goes into telling our clients how we do things and what we do. And then all the things the client doesn’t know that they need to know, that becomes an educational process for them. And to your point, yeah, if they’re like, “Yeah, let’s do it,” that kind of when we have to pump the brakes and say, “Okay. Cool. But here are all the things that you’re going to need to think through before we ever get started.”

And you’re right, a lot of the time, it’s they just don’t know. There’s a beautiful ignorance that can fall over people that really don’t know exactly what we have to go through. And then it really is on us to walk them through everything, so we become educators.

Jessica Hughes: 11:19 Right. And I think that’s an interesting point to kind of dive into. So I know that you have a different process than we have at VisCul, and probably a different process than the next agency down the street.

Seth Sirbaugh: 11:32 Yeah. Everybody’s unique.

Jessica Hughes: 11:33 Everybody’s unique. But everyone has a process that they go through to gather up the information that they need in order to do the creative work. So what are some of the things from your perspective that you’re looking for when you’re starting to work on a project? Because I know that they’re the same things that we’re looking for, we just go about them in different ways of gathering them.

Seth Sirbaugh: 11:55 Well, I mean, we always say that what we are working on, it’s not ours. It’s the client’s. It’s the client’s baby. And for us to say, “Oh, we got this. We can totally do it, and I know exactly what you need,” that’s just arrogant. That would be arrogance on my part. It is really their baby. And you really need to dive in to talking to them and pull, sometimes, that information out of them because they’re coming to you because they need help. It’s not like, “Hey, look. Here, I’ve done all this. Here’s a big drawer full of everything I have. Go to it.” You really need to sit down and understand what their goals are, what their needs are, and really even that conversation starts to shed light on all the other aspects of things that you’re going to have to do for them because they may be coming to you and just saying, “Hey. I need you to design this packaging.”

But at the end of the day, you find out, okay, well, you have nothing. And there’s a lot more involved than just doing packaging here. Everything from the identity, to how they’re talking about it, to how they’re going to market it because those just sometimes send sparks off in people’s heads as you’re walking them through that. And they’re like, “Oh, wow. Yeah. I had no idea. And I haven’t even budgeted for it.” Because then you get the glazed over eyes. You’re like, “Oh, God. I haven’t budgeted for it.” Well, step by step, one at a time. You can make it through this and we can help you through everything. So it is, and I don’t know that I’m really answering your question, I think we do a lot of interviewing.

We do a lot of interviewing. We do a lot of question asking. We do that both face to face. I’m a big fan of face to face because I like people’s facial expressions. I feel like that tells me a lot. But we also do a lot of larger kind of research based questionnaires. And then we use all of that together to really refine some kind of platform for us to begin with, which is, I always say, “I’m not a unique snowflake.” There are so many agencies and they all have a fact gathering process that they use. And what I always tell people is, “Everybody does that, and everybody does it differently for a reason,” because they feel that they can get the best information out of their clientele based on how they go about that process.

I know that’s how you guys work too. And it’s really cool that everybody’s different. Course, I’m someone that works in brands. I love different. So the fact that everybody’s different is great.

Jessica Hughes: 14:37 Yeah. Well, and I think that’s the kicker too, is when you’re reaching out to an agency, it’s as much about their ability to do the work as it is the chemistry of the relationship because everyone is different, and everyone brings a different perspective.

Seth Sirbaugh: 14:51 Yes. Trusting your gut is huge for our clients because chances are, if they’re on a call with a principal, or an art director, or an account manager at an agency, and that conversation makes them feel a certain way, they should probably trust their gut. Usually, if there’s a vibe that comes from it, and they’re uncomfortable, they’re not going to be comfortable in the process or the project. So chances are, project’s not going to go well. So trusting your gut I think is huge for clients.

Jessica Hughes: 15:25 I agree. So let’s take a step back for a second. We all know that there are sites like, and I know this is a four letter word to us, but 99 Designs, that exist. So they’re super cheap. And then there’s people like us who design brands and campaigns and those sorts of things that are at a very high level. So why should someone go one way versus the other? And we all know which way we prefer they go in.

Seth Sirbaugh: 16:03 Yeah. I mean, it’s a really good question because, I mean, as someone who has seen all of the these different kinds of companies, million dollar companies versus a mom and pop shop that just doesn’t have the money to afford agencies like us, it just doesn’t work. I always kind of liken it to, it’s like if you’re buying a beat up Mazda that’s on sale for $3000, you’re still going to be able to drive around, maybe not long, but you’re going to be able to drive around. Or you invest in a quality car, there’s a reason why they’re different costs. There’s a reason why they’re different kinds of expense.

If you go 99 Designs ways, you may get a functional logo that’s going to last you for as long as you need it to. You may see it somewhere else sometime and realize that, oh, I’m not the only one with that logo.” You may realize down the road that, oh, hey, someone’s got something close to me. You may get a cease and desist because it looks very similar to something you have, and the people that are there didn’t do any research on it. That said, you may go the lifespan of your business and never need another thing. So it really kind of comes down to the investment by the client. How much are they willing to invest? How much can they invest? Because it’s not a knock on somebody if they can’t afford a massive identity project.

But it also requires that client to understand that they’re passing that up for something else. And that education is something I have … That’s our job. We unfortunately are put in that position sometimes, so we have to tell them. It’s different. There’s a different level of work that goes into it. The research, all of the concepting that goes behind things, it’s not someone that’s sitting behind a desk that doesn’t really know who you are, hasn’t taken the time to do any research, doesn’t know any of that, just has the name of your company, and they bang out six logos and say, “Hey, do you like one?” That’s not how we work.

Jessica Hughes: 18:17 Right. It’s not.

Seth Sirbaugh: 18:20 It’s not.

Jessica Hughes: 18:22 So the kicker in all of that I guess is the fact that people are going to go one way or the other. And I think you get what you invest in, let’s put it that way.

Seth Sirbaugh: 18:22 Yes.

Jessica Hughes: 18:40 And I think the cool thing, at least for me, and this is something that we encourage our clients to do, is after we go through a branding project, or we go through a launch of something, we definitely encourage them if there’s an icon, or there’s specific wording, or something of that nature, we encourage them to trademark it for these exact purposes. And I know that you’re a strong proponent of that too, which just goes back to that research side of it too, is the fact that we do the research on the front end, so when you go through that trademark process, you don’t get word back that, oh, we can’t trademark this because someone else has.

Seth Sirbaugh: 19:17 Right. Exactly. And I think the earlier on that sometimes, the better.

Jessica Hughes: 19:23 Yes.

Seth Sirbaugh: 19:24 I’ve seen it go both ways, where people have been very lucky that they did it very early. And then I’ve also seen it the other way, where people have waited a little bit too long, and they realize everything they fell in love with, oh, they can’t use it. And it happens. That kind of stuff happens. So we definitely will push it early. It’s not a huge investment just to have a lawyer do a search. Going through a trademark and registering, yeah, that’s a little bit more money, but by that point, you realize that this is yours. You can still be safe about it and do an early search on something and just clear the air a little bit that, okay, it looks like we’re going to be just fine after we start to develop these things. But always better that, again, they do it, they focus on it, let a lawyer do it.

Jessica Hughes: 20:12 Yes.

Seth Sirbaugh: 20:13 Don’t do a Google search and then, fingers crossed, I didn’t see anything. That doesn’t really work.

Jessica Hughes: 20:18 No. Yes, Google is not the intellectual property attorneys of the world.

Seth Sirbaugh: 20:18 No, it’s not.

Jessica Hughes: 20:28 Okay. So obviously, as we’re talking about 99 Designs versus what we do and kind of that spectrum of services, there’s a financial investment that comes with what we do. How can people prepare financially for working with an agency?

Seth Sirbaugh: 20:45 Well, I think a good way is to reach out to us because: How many people have you talked to that have no idea what you’re about to charge? They don’t have any clue-

Jessica Hughes: 20:57 They have no clue. And then they’re floored. They’re just like, “What?”

Seth Sirbaugh: 21:02 Yeah. It’s a price shock. It really is. Sticker shock is huge deal in our industry, and it’s just because unfortunately, there are so many different kinds of agencies. There are. And all of those agencies have different processes, as we’ve stated, but that also means that we’re spending different amounts of time on things. And then beyond that, there’s the level of specialization, and honestly, talent that comes with what we do. And that has a very different timestamp on it than maybe a different company. So something that, yeah, this company knocks something out in three hours, where I’m like, “Yeah. That’s going to take us three months to do it the right way.” It’s very easy to point out why the sticker shock is understandable. It’s a big difference between $200 and $20,000. So somebody can be very much like, “Whoa.” I get it.

Jessica Hughes: 22:03 Yeah. There’s a difference between a templated website versus a custom website.

Seth Sirbaugh: 22:08 Yes. Yes, there is.

Jessica Hughes: 22:12 The reality is that obviously, there’s a lxqarger investment. But I think where a lot of those discovery conversations come into play and that research, and the very strategic thought that goes into the creative that’s being produced, it also pays in dividends on the back end with your customer experience as well. And I know I’ve talked to you a lot in the past, not right now, about the touchpoints of a brand and the customer journey, and all those different aspects that we consider whenever we’re working on a brand of, this doesn’t just have to look pretty on a piece of white paper. But it needs to function, whether it’s in advertising, or on packaging, or on T-shirts, or signage, or with the aesthetic of a building, and all those different elements that we need to pull together. So how do you kind of go about that process of understanding all the touch points and thinking through how all those different pieces work?

Seth Sirbaugh: 23:08 Well, I can tell you that it starts by having the same people work with the brand. That’s why, kind of fading back a little bit to what we were talking about, having John at 99 Designs do a logo, and Sara at Websites Are Us build your website out, there’s no tie in, there’s no unity to anything. And the other thing that’s really important, and we talk about this, I preach this like it’s my job because it is, is that just going out and saying, “Hey, I’m starting a business. I need a logo,” no, that’s not how this should work. You need brand documentation way before you do anything else. Who are you? Why are you? Those are all things that I need to know before I start the project. And those are the kind of things that are going to then inform things that they won’t even be thinking about your visual identity and all your communications, your social media, everything like that.

But it’s also going to inform things like, oh, well, if you have an office, it might be your environmental design. It could also be things like how you see sponsorships with other people. There’s a lot of different things. That brand platform and strategy needs to inform all of those touchpoints. It’s just super important. And the other aspect of it is you’re working with somebody who doesn’t deal with brand, then they may give you all these pieces and not really understand that they need to be formed by brand strategy. And then that’s going to then match up with what your audience sees. It’s a very, what we do isn’t always easy. And it’s important that our clients understand that there’s a reason we go through the processes that we do versus saying, “Oh, you’re starting a new company. Here’s your color palette. Here’s your logo. You’re going to be awesome.” It doesn’t work that way. And so many of the people that we talk to, that’s kind of the only thing that they know. And it’s because they don’t really know what we do.

Jessica Hughes: 25:18 Right. And to a certain extent, I think about the relationship that we build with people as we go through all those processes. And it almost becomes, for lack of a better analogy, almost becomes like a marriage. There’s a give and a take to it. There are things that you’re going to hold dear to, and there’s things that the client’s going to hold dear to. And you kind of have to wiggle your way into that mutual territory. But at the same time, you’re helping one another kind of give birth to a baby and raise it.

Seth Sirbaugh: 25:18 Right.

Jessica Hughes: 25:53 And I think the hard part too is as a creative, we’ve worked with brands where we have done our due diligence. We have built out every customer touchpoint aspect. We have pre populated eComm sites, so all they have to do is push a button. And all of a sudden, you get a communication from the client saying, “Hey, can you make this eComm site live?” And it’s one that they put together. And I’m like, “But you just paid for us to do this one that’s actually on brand. I don’t understand.”

So really relying on your partner to do their part and protect your brand, to understand. Usually, I know you do this, but an agency will provide you with brand guidelines to ensure that anyone who touches the brand understands what it is as a living, breathing organism, and what that should look and feel like. But then also be able to take that internally and say, “This is what it should look and feel like.” And there needs to be someone internally saying, “If it doesn’t look or feel like this, or seem consistent with everything else that we’ve done, then there should be no go.”

Seth Sirbaugh: 27:07 Yeah. I think that’s really important. It’s overlooked a lot of the time because I think that sometimes we get clients that are so big that once we have everything done, they’re like, “Great. We have everything.” And then we never hear from them again. And then in three weeks, everything has [crosstalk 00:27:24].

Jessica Hughes: 27:24 It’s all watered.

Seth Sirbaugh: 27:25 Yeah, it is.

Jessica Hughes: 27:26 All watered down.

Seth Sirbaugh: 27:27 It is. And that I think falls, it falls on us for the education. But it also falls on the client to stand solid in what we’re telling them. They need to be evangelists for their brand. And that means that, yeah, if something’s not right, you have to call it out. You have to fix it. That is, unless they’re paying us to be those people, which is a completely different project in and of itself.

Jessica Hughes: 27:27 It is.

Seth Sirbaugh: 27:56 It’s really important that they follow up with those guidelines as well. It becomes a … It’s a full-time job.

Jessica Hughes: 28:07 It is.

Seth Sirbaugh: 28:08 It’s a full-time job.

Jessica Hughes: 28:11 It is.

Seth Sirbaugh: 28:11 Yeah.

Jessica Hughes: 28:11 And especially for small or medium sized companies. I look at part of our responsibility as an agency is to almost be a brand manager for them and say, “Okay. This is consistent. This is not.” And I can’t tell you how many times I’ve gone into a conversation with a client that we’ve worked with for years, and they’re talking through something, whether it’s a new product, or a new launch campaign for something, or whatever it is, and I’m the person that sits there and says, “Well, why are we offering this? It doesn’t seem consistent with what you’re trying to do and what the end goal is.”

Seth Sirbaugh: 28:46 Where did this come from? Right.

Jessica Hughes: 28:48 Right. And they’ll look at me like, “I don’t know what you’re talking about.” And usually, I’ll explain a little bit further. But then the feedback is, “Oh, you’re right. We shouldn’t be launching this product. We shouldn’t be doing this because it’s not brand consistent.” Or maybe the conversation is maybe we need to tweak it a little bit to make it consistent with brand. Or maybe it’s the understanding that I need to have of this is the direction that we want, a new direction that we want to push into. And I think especially given the first half of this year, that’s one of those things that as a brand, I think we’re all, or brand managers, we’re all starting to realize is that companies are pivoting. And we just need to understand. What’s the thought process here? Why are we going in this direction so we can help support them?

Seth Sirbaugh: 29:31 Right. Well, I think that’s why you use the term partner. That’s what we are.

Jessica Hughes: 29:38 It’s a partnership. Yes.

Seth Sirbaugh: 29:38 Yeah. It is. Absolutely. And clients are coming to us and we’re forming a partnership. That means that everybody should act like it. Lean on each other. Ask those questions. It’s important. I mean, that’s why we do the best that we can to keep them on track. But again, at the end of the day, it is their baby. But they need to lean on us when they need that information. It’s just really important. That partnership is huge.

Jessica Hughes: 30:08 Yes. Well, thank you so much, Seth. Is there anything else you want to add?

Seth Sirbaugh: 30:14 Actually, one of my favorite things, I will throw this in there. One of my favorite things is that we talk about creative firms and design agencies and branding agencies. Design versus branding is, in my opinion, people do not understand the relationship between the two. And it kills me because when people come and they’re like, “Hey, I need a branding firm.” Great. What do we need? We need a logo and stationery or business cards. That’s not really branding. That’s just design. It doesn’t work that way. And unfortunately, I think that people need to understand that they could have the most beautiful logo and business card and website, but if that is just pretty design and there is no strategy behind it, it is just fluff. That’s all it is. And it looks like every other fluff business card and logo that’s out there.

There’s no point behind it. There’s no strategy. There’s no stylization that comes from points that they’ve made through their branding platform. There’s none of that. And it’s unfortunate because that is a … It is not preached enough in our industry because we still have to deal with it all the time. And it’s another reason why we have to do so much education with the client. It’s crazy. And I see it, I see it with other agencies, where the terminology is different. And yes, we all have different terminology. I get that. But we’re all trying to do the same thing. And there’s a lot of agencies that really understand how those two need to be symbiotic in how they work together.

But then we see other agencies that are throwing the words around. And then they leave that agency and come to us, and they’re like, “Well, what do you mean we’re going to be doing this?” And I’m like, “Yeah. You don’t have anything unique. You have a logo that somebody put together because you needed a logo, and there’s no strategy behind it. And it doesn’t really even tie into what you want to be.” So those are things that I think are again just on kind of that education side, things I wish were a little bit more ingrained in that clients that we deal with.

Jessica Hughes: 32:32 Yes. It’s like you almost want to-

Seth Sirbaugh: 32:35 I get a little [inaudible 00:32:35] over that.

Jessica Hughes: 32:37 It’s almost like you wish there was an agency 101 course before they ever come to you. Thank you so much for joining us. You can follow Seth on Instagram at Tribecol, T-R-I-B-E-C-O-L. You can also check him out on his website at tribecol.com.